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Are you predestined to be a murderer?
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Are you predestined to be a murderer?
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I watched an interesting programme on BBC Four last night called: Are you Good or Evil? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b014kj65 It looked at whether people are born as psychopaths. One of the researc
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Forums  »  Open clinical  »  Psychiatry  »  Are you predestined to be a murderer?

Are you predestined to be a murderer?

posted at 10/2/2012 11:01 AM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 630
First: 7/4/2011
Last: 18/5/2012
I watched an interesting programme on BBC Four last night called: Are you Good or Evil?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b014kj65

It looked at whether people are born as psychopaths. One of the researchers who was investigating what attrtibutes psychopaths have in common. One of these attribute is the MAOA "warrior gene" which means that those who possess it can be impulsive and lack empathy. Consequently, the researcher featured in the programme possessed this very gene but had not turned out to be a murderer (yet) and this was attributed to the fact he had loving parents who treated him well.

However, the programme made clear that if an individual possessed this gene and was abused as a child, they were more likely to be a murderer. The programme makers pointed to the case of Bradley Waldroup who carried out a violent attack on his wife's friend. He was going to be given the death sentence but scientfic evidence argued that he possessed the MAOA gene and had been abused as a child and that this is what led him to murder.

The programme ended on a profound note: as we do not choose our genes or our parents or carers, then do we really have free will over our actions? Are we really in control of our destiny? 

It seems the argument is not either nature or nurture that defines who we are. But, should we be so passive as to say that our genes are in the driving seat and there is nothing we can do to alter our so-called predestined behaviours?




Re: Are you predestined to be a murderer?

posted at 10/2/2012 3:14 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 851
First: 12/3/2010
Last: 20/5/2012

This programme included Prof. James Fallon of the University of California, Irvine, but did not feature his most telling finding, which may be the subject of the next programme. 
  So, SPOILER ALERT!  




Prof. Fallon studies dangerous psychopaths, and has looked at the positron emission tomograms of such people, finding typical changes among them, that may be pathognomic.  He has been in the scanner himself, to find that he shares the same features of psychopathy as the known killers he has studied!  More, he has learnt from his parents that he has a family history of psychopathy and murder!

Yet he is a pleasant, respected and distinguished academic.   He suspects that his good childhood upbringing may have prevented his genetic inheritance from making him what some of his ancestors were, psychopathic killers.  Which is the same point made about the MAOI gene, that it isnot expressed unless the adult was abused as a child.

Which raises the "association is not causation" argument.   Violent people have been found to have the cerebral features of Prof.Fallon or the MAOI 'warrior' gene.   The programmes do not say how far the opposite may be true, that the possessors of these 'markers' are violent adults, or have neither, with an abused childhood and a violent present.  How many are, like Prof. Fallon, well-adjusted, achieving members of society with those features, is unknown.

 We really don't know what any of this means, yet.

Nor, as Matthew raises in another thread ( http://doc2doc.bmj.com/forums/open-clinical_psychiatry_should-shyness-defined-mental-illness ) do we know what we are doing in defining mental illness.  The murderer in the programme was defended by pleading his 'warrior' gene.  The new edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, DSM-5, includes, as well as a definition of shyness as a pathology, the diagnoses of "oppositional defianat disorder" for stroppy children, and "paraphilic coercive disorder" to label a rapist.
I wonder how soon that will be raised in court as an excuse?

John

Re: Are you predestined to be a murderer?

posted at 10/2/2012 4:45 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 632
First: 9/12/2011
Last: 21/5/2012
This is Very interesting,  and perhaps Socio-Biology will make progress into the gateways of this topic.  I have also read that certain types of Jobs High Stress cause micro-biological changes in brain chemistry, as well as pollution and stress from diet etc.   This could explain Megalomaniacs like Saddam Hussein, and  Hitler, etc.     I will be researching this further,   Add another set of books to my to read list!
DuaneF

Re: Are you predestined to be a murderer?

posted at 19/2/2012 2:57 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 24
First: 19/1/2012
Last: 18/4/2012
There is good evidence that high levels of MAO-A (monoamine oxidase A) makes children more resilient to childhood adversity and abuse, as Caspi et al beautifully showed in the journal Science 2002: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/297/5582/851.full

Their classic graph is attached.
Reference: Caspi A, McClay J, Moffitt T et al. Role of Genotype in the Cycle of Violence in Maltreated Children Science 2 August 2002: Vol. 297 no. 5582 pp. 851-854

Re: Are you predestined to be a murderer?

posted at 19/2/2012 3:02 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 24
First: 19/1/2012
Last: 18/4/2012
Also beautifully backed up in a study by Foley et al in which they showed children with low MAO-A and childhood adversity were more likely to have conduct disorder than those with high MAO-A and adversity (conduct disorder is a childhood diagnosis often leads to antisocial personality disorder diagnosis as an adult, a subset of which is psychopathy): http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/61/7/738#REF-YOA30487-4

Reference: Foley D, Eaves L, Wormley B. Childhood Adversity, Monoamine Oxidase A Genotype, and Risk for Conduct Disorder Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2004;61:738-744

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