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DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?
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DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?
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Latin language has been the common language for communication between doctors for ages. In my country of origing it was and still is a mandatory part of the Medical Degree. In contrary
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Forums  »  Open clinical  »  General clinical  »  DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 16/7/2012 5:18 AM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 1280
First: 9/12/2011
Last: 14/5/2013
John D,  are you asserting that my Mind is not well stocked?  
that would be a mistake,   for I do have a well stocked Mind.    Granted mostly in the Sciences,  but in other areas as well.   DuaneF

In Response to Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?:
It's called a well stocked mind, Duane!
Posted by John D

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 16/7/2012 1:58 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 2034
First: 12/3/2010
Last: 17/5/2013
I was teasing you, Duane!
Not every shop stocks the same goods - And I am a picker-up of unconsidered trifles!

JOhn

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 18/7/2012 12:38 AM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 106
First: 13/3/2012
Last: 9/5/2013
Latin is to language as the basic notes are to music.  Latin's exceptional value lies in that it is a dead language and common usage has not mutated into different connotations in different languages and different age groups.   Musicians who can read music have, if not the ability, at least the potential,  to transfer this theoretical knowledge to any musical instrument.  Botanical names, retained in Latin, are univerally recognised even when the common or local names are so vastly different.   Simple latin terms to describe anatomical positions and structures eliminate the differing personal perceptions of people who are doctors, who use personal terms to identify problems.   I have noticed a decidedly frightening trend amongst new doctors who do not take the time to learn the correct latin terms of structures and positions and find an alarming number of gross errors in their diagnosis and reports of what they perceive to be the problems.  The number of reports I find the need to correct, with the patient's confirmation, about the problem is hair raising in the implications of incorrect treatment based on incorrect observations and conclusions and  poorly educated or poorly understood and applied medical language.    I see many doctors in their zeal to appear to know everything, telling their patients so much garbage couched in lofty medical terms, that patients go away thoroughly confused.  When I confront these doctors, their medical superiority in the presence of patients fades rapidly and it becomes clear they don't know what they are talking about, but it sounded good, because it sounded above the patient's head.

Latin is the musical basic of many languages.  The commonality that allows anyone with the same knowledge and understanding to perceive clearly what another is trying to communicate.  Common every day usage does not allow the specificity that doctors need and require to communicate accuracy not just to other doctors and specialists in referrals, but it also allows accurate communication to the patient, provided that the doctor is able to present that knowledge to the patient in a way the patient can clearly understand.
This skill may be an innate talent, but it can be cultivated by a thirst for knowledge in many areas so that the doctor can find and reach the patient on the level that is necessary for understanding, communication and healing.   Birds, plants, trees, electricity, mechanics, Latin, philosophy, religion, spirituality, travel, origami,  the list is endless, are all levels for communication.   
Learning, no matter what, broadens anyone's base to be able to connect with his fellow man, woman and child.  It is of vital importance as science reveals the healing power of information.  But it needs to be accurate information, intensely relevant to the patient at the time conveyed with insight, compassion and wisdom.

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 18/7/2012 4:33 AM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 1280
First: 9/12/2011
Last: 14/5/2013
Very True John,   and I applaud your assortment of Knowledge.   As a side note,  With reference to the post I made on Nonsense posts in the BMJ forum,   you mentioned that other message boards and forums were very Nasty and not nice,  WOW, you hit that one on the head,  I joined a Police Forum, and quit in a period of one day!    I did not even get to make one post without getting Cursed at from all sides,  no civility at all.     Almost like being in a Post Apocalyptic Earth setting.    Too surreal, and weird.    DuaneF

In Response to Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?:
I was teasing you, Duane! Not every shop stocks the same goods - And I am a picker-up of unconsidered trifles! JOhn
Posted by John D

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 18/7/2012 11:35 AM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 2947
First: 10/3/2009
Last: 29/4/2013
In Response to Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?:
Latin is to language as the basic notes are to music.  Latin's exceptional value lies in that it is a dead language and common usage has not mutated into different connotations in different languages and different age groups.   Musicians who can read music have, if not the ability, at least the potential,  to transfer this theoretical knowledge to any musical instrument.  Botanical names, retained in Latin, are universally recognised even when the common or local names are so vastly different.   Simple latin terms to describe anatomical positions and structures eliminate the differing personal perceptions of people who are doctors, who use personal terms to identify problems.   I have noticed a decidedly frightening trend amongst new doctors who do not take the time to learn the correct latin terms of structures and positions and find an alarming number of gross errors in their diagnosis and reports of what they perceive to be the problems.  The number of reports I find the need to correct, with the patient's confirmation, about the problem is hair raising in the implications of incorrect treatment based on incorrect observations and conclusions and  poorly educated or poorly understood and applied medical language.    I see many doctors in their zeal to appear to know everything, telling their patients so much garbage couched in lofty medical terms, that patients go away thoroughly confused.  When I confront these doctors, their medical superiority in the presence of patients fades rapidly and it becomes clear they don't know what they are talking about, but it sounded good, because it sounded above the patient's head. Latin is the musical basic of many languages.  The commonality that allows anyone with the same knowledge and understanding to perceive clearly what another is trying to communicate.  Common every day usage does not allow the specificity that doctors need and require to communicate accuracy not just to other doctors and specialists in referrals, but it also allows accurate communication to the patient, provided that the doctor is able to present that knowledge to the patient in a way the patient can clearly understand. This skill may be an innate talent, but it can be cultivated by a thirst for knowledge in many areas so that the doctor can find and reach the patient on the level that is necessary for understanding, communication and healing.   Birds, plants, trees, electricity, mechanics, Latin, philosophy, religion, spirituality, travel, origami,  the list is endless, are all levels for communication.    Learning, no matter what, broadens anyone's base to be able to connect with his fellow man, woman and child.  It is of vital importance as science reveals the healing power of information.  But it needs to be accurate information, intensely relevant to the patient at the time conveyed with insight, compassion and wisdom.
Posted by Dr Linda


Well said.

Latin is the treble; Greek is the base. Without the base the melody is not rich. Weave the two together and one has the contrapuntal four part harmony of Bach only in ideas. Greek is the atavistic memory whence springeth Latin. It is the early Indo-European tongue. Most Latin words and ideas spring from Greek. Greek has many roots in Sanskrit, Odysseus being one.

Most doctors don't dabble in Latin. Greek is a bridge too far. There is hardly an idea in modern thought  that does not arise in  Greece. Medicine is Greek. The Romans thronged to Greece as we do to Paris.

Forget not Greek. Forget me not. I have a rosemary hedge in my front garden. It is to remember. Mnesis; memory.

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 18/7/2012 11:40 AM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 2034
First: 12/3/2010
Last: 17/5/2013
Dr.Linda,
I read your post with interetst, as I thjink you represent the 'other sort' of person I described earlier, who so values Latin, when as I sadi then, I can't see the point.  You wil say that is my loss, but are the values to ascribe to it so important?

Anatomical terms, and the Linnaean nomenclature (you se I can use latinate terms!) use Latin words, but that is merely a jargon.  You do not have to use Latin to use them or to understand them, you can learn the names and the common suffixes without a study of Latin grammar.  And you must learn them, as you learn any professional jargon - Police speak one, engineers speak on, doctors have one too, it's part of the skill mix, and if a trainee doesn't have it, they need to learn for rapid communication to their peers, but NOT for talki ng to patients.
I was teaching first aiders and referred to the humerus.    "What's that then?" said a heckler.   I apologised for using jargion and explained, where upon he asked again, why it was not called the upper arm bone.  You can't help some people so I just said it was quicker to call it the humerus.
I think you then go on to say that a knowldge of Latin lends clarity and logic to your discourse. I DID do Latin at school, but I really don't think that I am better speaker or debater as a result.  Especially when I was never given any 'great' Latin authors to read, no Livy (?) or Cicero (??) only soppy myth stories and some of Caesar's Gallic Wars.

I'm sorry Linda, I envy your ability with language, if that is what you have, but you'll not convince me that Latin will lend me a golden tongue!
John

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 18/7/2012 2:11 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 106
First: 13/3/2012
Last: 9/5/2013
Dear John,
It was never my intention to try and convince anyone that Latin would lend them a golden tongue, whatever it is that is meant by that.  If it means the biblical "excellent eloquence", it matters not at all to me the manner in which  anyone strives towards that eloquence, the clarity of communication, the ability to be understood and the desire to converse with others on common levels so that the chosen words and the manner in which they are offered are like precious gold or even silver, and are uplifting, healing or soothing, encouraging and life giving.
How anyone does this is in keeping with their innate inner beings and drives.  If those drives are for truth and knowledge through the classics, through language, philosophy, maths, music, medicine, mechanics, raising children, teaching sewing, learning, sport, exercise, yoga, prayer or meditation matters little.  Simply that the desire for learning, growing and expanding self and self's experiences are there.  If by some chance this improves communication with those around, well, that's a bonus.  It is the learning that counts, but what makes it multiply are the tingling momets that learning triggers when understanding crosses all the areas of life in that wonderful instant of insight when so much understanding falls into place so quickly that it is called a revelation.  This is the reward that entices the seeker through the rough parts of learning - anything - not just languages and sustains future exploration.   This is what should be part of the doctor's life  - the sheer excitement of discovering more and more about the human beings he treats.  Sadly, this joy of discovery is more often than  not, lost in the hectic schedule of most doctors who do not have time to step outside their sphere that has become their limitations.  If it was not, there would be many more happy doctors, thrilled by their discoveries, their burdens lightened by that deep joy and satisfaction that comes with insight, understanding and wisdom that they can then pass on to their patients for their benefit.   The old family GP no longer exists, but I think he was a much happier person than the  few  existing,  genuine  GPs of today.

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 18/7/2012 2:51 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 2034
First: 12/3/2010
Last: 17/5/2013
Then may I divert this Latin based thread to other ways of improving a doctor's sensitivity to thier patient's needs?  What's more, I refer you to a scholarly article,

"Body-conscious Shakespeare: sensory disturbances in troubled character", KW Heaton Brit J Medical Humanties, 2011;37:97-102
http://mh.bmj.com/content/37/2/97.abstract

Dr.Heaton offers evidence from Shakespeare's work of somatic symptoms that refelct the patient's inner turmoil.

I would rather read Shakespeare than Latin - I would most rather hear his words spoken as they should be, 'trippingly on the tongue', for if anyone had a golden tongue, it was he.  I know, I know, he almost certainly learnt Latin. but it was and is English that was his forte.

JOhn

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 18/7/2012 6:31 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 339
First: 17/12/2011
Last: 15/5/2013
Hang on, I am an old fashioned GP, I did years of Latin but I am afraid I am as poor at dead languages as I am at living ones. I can speak a little French and have a few words of Gujrati, Portuguese and Italian. But the old fashioned GP does exist , for a bit longer I hope.
Sic transit gloria

Re: DOCTORS - not using Latin language? Why?

posted at 19/7/2012 6:33 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 164
First: 31/5/2012
Last: 8/10/2012

Would learning the Latin or Greek roots of medical terms make us better doctors? .
Posted by MustafaA


Mustafa, yes, the knowledge of Latin will make you a better one ...I am sorry to hear you have some doubts
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