What do you think?

Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
False
General clinical
Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
Discuss any specialty in this open forum for all healthcare professionals
As a confirmed atheist in the finest traditions of Prof Dan Dennett, Dr Sam Harris, Prof Richard Dawkins and the late and much lamented Christopher Hitchens (The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse) I ne
6
Cat:OpenClinicalForum:GeneralClinical
Cat:OpenClinicalForum:GeneralClinicalDiscussion:2040b305-c790-46f3-be7c-d8382b684c25

Forums » Open clinical » General clinical » Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

You must be logged in to contribute. Log in | Register
 
 First << 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 >> Last
Forums  »  Open clinical  »  General clinical  »  Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 31/12/2011 1:58 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 4
First: 30/12/2011
Last: 13/3/2012
Selected thoughts...
Problems with atheism

1) No one knows why we are here, what the point of life is and how to live in the best possible way- we're just guessing.

As we know from EBM a lack of guidelines leads to worse outcomes. So you get horrors like pandemic influenza and CJD because farmers wanted to make money and had no guidelines to say that their practices were bad.

2) There's no robust counterbalance to (government) corruption. Yes you can be good without god, but when there's clear personal gain and no-one's looking you may not bother. If in the other hand you believe someone is looking, judging and you will be held accountable- you may not.

3) The total lack of an explanation for supernatural phenomena that have been observed by many. The presumption that it is 'all in the mind'

4) For those atheists who can only accept that which has been proven scientifically, a devaluing of unexplained concepts like the mind-body-soul connection. A rigid medical model to psychological distress.

5) No real resolution to suffering. If you believe there's nothing after death then suffering looks random and merciless.  That there's no point to it all. This offers very little optimism/coping strategy to suffering.

6) The centre of your person being for something other than god. Something else will inevitably fill this gap- and most likely that thing will be transient- money, your family, success etc. one day when you lose that thing your whole life could fall apart- an experience which is devastating enough to claim some people's lives.  Belief in god here offers psychological immunity.

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 31/12/2011 5:23 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 195
First: 8/6/2011
Last: 19/5/2012
I think that the world is anyway paralel with the religion.  Althought that most of us declaring that we are christians for exemple, in reality we don't think and we don't act like christians. Who from us is giving the rest of his food or clothes to the poors for exemple... Only very few and these are the exceptions who confirms the rule. The religion teaches us the futility of human greed.  Yesterday night i watched a move by discovery world  "2012 is the end of the world comming ? ''  presented by the wanderfull speaker Samuel l Jackson . Maybe it sounds ridicolous , but  i don't hide from you that it puted me in thoughts... After these  i start thinking about how big and strong are the forces of nature and how small and weak is the force of our civilizations. I start tinking about the overheating of our planet and the melting of Antarctic ice.  The big companies and leaders are probably happy of that becouse they  will have a lot of oil to extraxt and the ships will arive faster to their destinations but we don't now the possible negative consequesses that these maybe will have on the fragile and marginal environmend on wich we are living and our lives depends on. Huge earthqueaks, storms , deadly changes of the temperature . A chain of catastrofic events wich will provoke the distuction of hour specie is now getting more and more possible than ever.... Our , so called mondern societies , governed by illiterate persons  ( who maybe have done a 4 -8 years of studing in a big university like harvard or oxford but in fact they are illiterate  compared with the requirements and the complexity of our times and requirements). They succeed an economic dept of a small country like greece ( only 10 million population) to tranform it in big black hole wich is going to suke all the european community., with huge wold-econocopolitical and geostrategical negative consequensess.  And we have and some others ( the usa ) wich has not stop from the second word war to be at war...From the 1944 until now they are permanently at war... ( somebody must tell them that they do not need to be at war anymore....that they can stop) . After they have done a real mess in the middle east now they are preparing to hit iran wich we do not know what nuclear or biological weapons may has these time. And put all the wold in danger.  Now thinking about that the religions warn about the end of the warld and the causes and thinking about how fragile  is our the situation now and how much  is the 2012 and the next years wich are comming... What can we say ?...what the evidence show... I am not a pietist and i don't like people who believe that their religion is an argumend. The religions are in fact a stimulus for thinking ... ( totalitarian regiments have transformed it to the warst mecanism of blinding and manipulating people but their real meaning is other )

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 31/12/2011 5:30 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 195
First: 8/6/2011
Last: 19/5/2012
corection ; how dangerous the 2012 is.

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 1/1/2012 1:20 AM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 2075
First: 10/3/2009
Last: 18/5/2012
Oh, Ikaros, please see below:

Optimism
While I share your concerns about 2012, I don't feel pessimistic. Optimism breads positive solutions while pessimism can lead to inactivity and a fatalistic outlook. If Churchill had not been a rugged optimist at during the dark days of 1940, he would have capitulated to the NAZI government as had done all Europe. There would have been a new Dark Ages as he said. We would all be slaves. 

Man will muddle through as he/she is a great innovator.
Self-interest usually leads to pragmatism and self-preservation. The warming of the planet has happened before regardless of man. Man's imagination and inventiveness usually wins out notwithstanding the loss of countless species and the loss of complexity of habitat along the way. In a few hundred years' time, people will look back and talk about the end of the Industrial Revolution and the modern carboniferous age. 

Belief Systems
As for religion, the biggest challenge for man is an internal renewal of his attitudes and perceptions about the cosmos but mostly all we see is religion is the same old stuff which just reinforces our prejudices. Religions need to catch up with the 21st century and the real challenges for the planet. The grand old church structures albeit Catholic, Greek Orthodox or Anglican still parade in their finery while preaching the simplicity of the Sermon on the Mount while Tasmania Devils face extinction and Adélie Penguins lose habitat year by year. We have a green recycle bin at home; why not the Church? However, the Church is still on MUTE. 

Science
Evidence-based medicine and evidence-based science confront established dogma. We need evidence-based belief systems which attempt to change our current level of religiosity which is little different from that of the Spanish Conquistadors to a more enlightened "green-based, biosphere-sympathetic faith system (dare I say Green) which really is not much different from that originally preached by Jesus in Galilee. His messages were too simplistic for pompous mankind who likes High Church and incense "Consider the lilies of the field...". Matthew 6. This is a message even an atheist could find useful; less is more, a more existential life-style is the buzz as well as the need for the amassing of inner riches and not a three car garage and a Mercedes in the drive for everyone to admire. We all would have more if we did this. 

So, be optimistic, my son. Go forth and stop multiplying. Dig into those deep gold veins of your inner being and treasure them but pay your taxes to Caesar and no cash under the table in your consulting rooms (common in Greece) as Caesar provides for hospitals and roads. be an optimist but realise that we learn more in our winters than our summers. 

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 1/1/2012 2:42 AM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 60
First: 7/11/2009
Last: 23/2/2012
Such a thought provoking question that I would have been proud to post myself! But the discussions, understandably, digressed. 

My answer would be evidence based doctors can and do believe in god in all of its various senses of the term, ranging from someone who takes sides with us in "war on terrorism" to something similar to the uncognizable of the agnostic. 

If the intended question was whether belief will affect his "evidence based functioning" in professional decisions, my answer would be : it will not make a perceptible / measurable difference. For all practical purposes Newtonian Physics is as good as Einsteinian Physics even when the latter is closer to truth. The difference in outcome between adoption of these two models will become apparent only in extreme applications. Medicine is still in its infancy and much is still based on faith. Alternate systems based on pure Voodooism  still thrives because the community does not have a tool to measure the difference and make it apparent to common man.

Thus we are still far off ..may be 2 decades away in my estimate, from an age in which the intellectual infidelity in remaining wedded to faith for personal purposes and being evidence based in professional decisions, will manifest in community to a level in which their coexistence will become impossible!

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 1/1/2012 4:42 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 195
First: 8/6/2011
Last: 19/5/2012
My dear Odyseas , first of all i have never taken money under the table. Second i just seared with you some enciclopedic  thoughts of myself. As for the optimism the news from the batle of greece  are not good at all... So fasten your seat belts !!!  Anyway an other is the subject of the discussion again.

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 1/1/2012 4:58 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 632
First: 9/12/2011
Last: 21/5/2012
It seems I got flamed on my last post about God based Mindset.  Let me revise!  I believe in God,  I also Believe in men doing their best.  I never said people who do not believe in God to be flawed, Oh Contrare, I said it was a flaw of Man to believe he created the universe!  This simply means we cannot through action make something out of nothing, simply Cartesian Logic!  Emmanuel Kant is the Metaphysican you need to access,  his "Critique of pure reason"  Allows deep introspection  of this topic.   One thing is for sure,  I will never respond to another God based topic again,  People here get too Touchy on the topic,  In closing,  Believe what you will,   If your an Atheist fine,  good for you,   do not expect me to fall lock step into your secular mindset.

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 5/1/2012 8:46 AM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 3
First: 28/12/2011
Last: 5/1/2012

Kirked thank you for your reply.  However my first question was not asking for the definition of evidence-based medicine but whether there are any evidence-based doctors.  For probably more than 50% of my practice, there is little or no EBM available – patient groups are too small, blinding is not always possible etc.  I suspect this goes for most of us but in these areas it is not EBM that guides us but opinion, experience or intuition.  My practice in these areas is evidence-based insofar as it makes good sense to me based on my knowledge, experience and my view of medicine, but I may not be able to convince a sceptic entirely.  I don’t consult a Cochrane review before I give a child ceftriaxone for meningococcal septicaemia - there are no placebo-controlled double blinded studies that tell us whether this works or not.  I believe it does, as do most of my colleagues.  Sometimes our experience or opinion are wrong.  Most of what we believe we receive second, third or even a hundredth hand.  I have never personally verified the speed of light or the existence of Pluto.  I hope these things are based on good evidence but it requires me to trust in the process of science and the good faith of those who report such things and re-report it in textbooks, journals etc.  That is a leap of faith in itself.  My point is that ‘evidence based doctors’ is not a meaningful label and most of what most doctors believe is not based on EBM or even of hard scientific evidence, but often taken on trust and what seems to make good sense.

 

These considerations also apply when asking whether there is evidence for God’s existence.  I don’t believe that God’s existence can be proved or disproved by EBM, or p-values.  However God’s existence (as the one by whom and for whom the entire universe and human life exists) makes sense in itself, and makes sense of the universe for me in many different ways –

• sense of who I am as a unique individual in history (and not merely one collection of evolved atoms among multi-billions)

• sense of the fact that my brain, although composed of atoms buzzing with indeterminate quantum mechanical processes, can correctly reason (this is difficult to defend on the basis of either a deterministic or chaotic universe),

• sense of the fact that there is something rather than nothing (even a universe that started from quantum imbalances in ‘nothing’ has to assume the possibility of quantum processes)

• sense of the fact that there are intelligent observers who can make sense of the universe (Nothing in our evolutionary history requires this.  God is a more parsimonious explanation than the multiverse),

• sense of the fine-tuning of the universe (again I think God is a better fit by Occam’s razor than the infinite-improbability drive of the multiverse)

• sense of my appreciation of beauty and order in the universe (quite unnecessary in my evolutionary past)

• sense of my moral instincts of fairness and justice (which are not necessarily the same as my moral practice and cannot be derived from it)

• sense of my experience of God’s presence

 

Another way of looking at this is the question of pattern-recognition and finding meaning in life and in the universe.  I cannot explain to you exactly what I am recognizing in a familiar face,  but I can recognize the face nonetheless.  And when you see a pattern emerge in one of those black-and-white shadow pictures beloved of visual illusions pages, it is then very difficult not to see the pattern, but often difficult to explain to someone who hasn’t yet ‘seen’ it.  The theory of common descent with modification makes sense of the pattern of life forms in the world in so many ways – once the concept has become ‘real’ to you, and after that it is difficult to conceive of biological life in any other way.

 

I think people of faith have seen a pattern or meaning in their lives and in the universe in which God makes sense to them.  It is then very difficult for them not to see the pattern.  They often struggle to articulate how exactly they recognize it, but that doesn’t mean there is no pattern or meaning.  The question I would ask is whether people without a belief in God are any more evidence based.  Have they seen a different pattern or have they merely not (yet) been able to see the pattern that others have?

 

That’s very brief, and there is probably nothing in that which clinches it for you - nothing pathognomonic of God that you can see in the world - but I hope you can see that people who are doctors and believe in God use experience and intuition, and trust alongside the available evidence just as any other rational people do. 

 

If you want to read something taking a different view to the four horsemen,  “The Reason for God” by Tim Keller attempts to explain, “how the belief in a Christian God is, in fact, a sound and rational one.”

 

http://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Belief-Age-Skepticism/dp/1594483493

 

As for the man teaching children that the earth is no more than 6000 years old, you might be pleased to hear that there are some Christians who groan with frustration at the scientific ignorance displayed by other Christians.  Christianity and modern science are not in opposition to each other and I see them as complementary.  I have recently published on this topic, specifically explaining to Christians who do not come from a scientific background the scientific evidence behind evolution. (http://www.amimykeepersbrother.com/ )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In Response to Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?:
I To phillipkp Evidence Based Medicine is summarised as followed.  I am very surprised I have to spell it out to you. But you say how do we know we have EBM Doctors: Evidence-based medicine (EBM) or evidence-based practice (EBP) aims to apply the best available evidence gained from the scientific method to clinical decision making .It seeks to assess the strength of evidence of the risks and benefits of treatments (including lack of treatment) and diagnostic tests. Evidence quality can be assessed based on the source type (from meta-analyses and systematic reviews of double-blind , placebo-controlled clinical trials at the top end, down to conventional wisdom at the bottom), as well as other factors including statistical validity, clinical relevance, currency, and peer-review acceptance. EBM/EBP recognizes that many aspects of health care depend on individual factors such as quality- and value-of-life judgments, which are only partially subject to scientific methods. EBP, however, seeks to clarify those parts of medical practice that are in principle subject to scientific methods and to apply these methods to ensure the best prediction of outcomes in medical treatment, even as debate continues about which outcomes are desirable. Because this approach is used in allied related fields, including dentistry , nursing , and psychology , evidence-based practice is a more encompassing term So the implication is: How can a Doctor who utilises such inquisitive and thoughtful methods to elicit best factual evidence believe in God.  Obviously there is absolutely no evidence that God exists or ever has existed.  Therefore it would go against all the premise of EBM to believe in God.  That must be a fundamental fact which a reasonable person could not ignore. You also say that if the answer to my initial question is no, then it prohibits people from having certain beliefs.  Thd answer to that is yes - if that person relies on evidence.  However they can still hold that 'belief' (and belief is the highest one can describe it as).  But they must be honest enough to accept that it is a leap of faith not a reasonable reaction to the evidence. You also ask what is the ev idence that  belief in God is never based on evidence?  You tell me.  What evidenceis there  to support the existence of god?.  I think what we can 'tease out' is that there is not one jot of evidence to support the existence of god and that EBM Doctors would be very hard put to ,to justify as existence of god.
Posted by kirked



Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 5/1/2012 11:40 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 3
First: 28/12/2011
Last: 5/1/2012
I'm sorry that URL to Tim Keller's book seems to point at Apple's website for reasons that seem to have nothing to do with EBM !  It works correctly if copied and pasted.  Try again here.

Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?

posted at 6/1/2012 2:03 PM GMT on bmj.com
Posts: 70
First: 15/8/2009
Last: 10/4/2012
In Response to Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?:
[Of course Harris was wrong. look at the conversation you've begun.
We have all kinds of faith, religious being one. Belief in the rational isolate--the philosophical man--is another. Evidence-based medicine (whose findings change day by day) is another. You really need to develop a bit of tolerance, here. 
 Posted by kirked[/QUOTE]
 First << 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 >> Last

Forums » Open clinical » General clinical » Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?