Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
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Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
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As a confirmed atheist in the finest traditions of Prof Dan Dennett, Dr Sam Harris, Prof Richard Dawkins and the late and much lamented Christopher Hitchens (The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse) I ne
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Forums » Open clinical » General clinical » Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 29/12/2011 3:16 PM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 195
First: 8/6/2011 Last: 19/5/2012 |
If gods existence is evidenced based is a very long disscusion and can go very far....writing thousands of books.... My opinion is that the human must believe in someting. Anyway i think that we all agree that everyone has the right to believe ( or not believe ) everything he wands in his private life. And also that a doctor is obligated to performe medicine under the rulles of evidence medicine, guideliness and the medical science as they are globaly accepted by the official medical associations. And that in any case hasn't the wright to influece the patient about religian subjects. |
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 29/12/2011 3:46 PM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 6
First: 29/12/2011 Last: 31/12/2011 |
This seems like a long and complicated argument, but we need to stick to whether religious doctors can go to church or other places of worship, and on monday be able to make sensible clinical evidence based judgements. And the answer is probably in most cases yes. We don't really live in the time of Galileo, where evidence against religion doctrine of our place in the universe led nearly to his death. People seem to compartmentalise their choice. No doctor would be taken seriously if they used religion in any explanation or decision they make. However, saying all that, atheist may be more inclined to skepticism...take the controversial alternative therapy debate...how many religious people are accepting of this evidence-poor health care. Homeopathy has a lot of faith riding on it's explanation, I wonder if atheist are more likely to see the skeptical side. Let us forget about atheism vs religion and see if there are any practical effects of this divide. Also, making a comparison of our lack of knowledge in gravity or parallel universes and saying that is some kind of religion is just wrong. It is based on evidence, and we are ready to throw away these theories unlike the eternal faiths.
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 29/12/2011 8:13 PM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 383
First: 15/7/2011 Last: 21/5/2012 |
In Response to Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?: If I may return to this fray? kirked, you say that "it would go against all the premise of EBM to believe in God." But while there is no evidence in the existence of a god, equally, there is none that a god does not exist. Even the most stringent of sciences cannot prove a negative. All the Good EBM Doctor can say is that they cannot base their practice on there being a god. Or gods. But base your practice on the humane tenets of any faith (perhaps not of the "cast out the eye that offends thee" type) or none at all and you will not go far wrong as a doctor. John Posted by John D John D, are we not dancing upon pin heads?. If there is no evidence that God exists, then by definition no evidence exists that we know of that god does not exist. We are saying the same thing. A good doctor must base his practice on that fact that the case to date offers no evidence whatsoever that god exists (if it affects his practice at all). What would be the evidence to prove that god does not exist? If an Evidence Based/inquisitorial approach is adopted to try to confirm the existence of god then surely if it all turns up negative results then it would be reasonable to assume that god does not exist.Therefore we are not proving a negative but simply stating the evidence as it has been rigorously evaluated. |
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 29/12/2011 8:24 PM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 383
First: 15/7/2011 Last: 21/5/2012 |
Posted by shyamkacha[/QUOTE] However, saying all that, atheist may be more inclined to skepticism...take the controversial alternative therapy debate...how many religious people are accepting of this evidence-poor health care. Homeopathy has a lot of faith riding on it's explanation, I wonder if atheist are more likely to see the skeptical side. Your post above sums up the religious attitude. A person may have great faith in homeopathy, for example, but their faith or indeed the fervour with which it is held has not been shown in clinical trials (to my knowledge) to have any basis in fact. Someone may find belief in religion (or homeopathy) consoling but that tells us nothing about the truth of the assertions they make. |
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 29/12/2011 10:53 PM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2075
First: 10/3/2009 Last: 18/5/2012 |
I think this debate can be well summed up by Jesus who when asked a divisive question not akin to this debate, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's (viz Science) and render unto God (viz. your belief system) what is God's". To be the Devil's Advocate, in my opinion all men are, in truth, Agnostics. We just don't know and I include Atheists who in a way have their own credo. People with religious notions have faith, but in reality, the Great Unknown is what lies out there. There is more we don't know than we know. When Paul of Tarsus made his famous visit to Athens and spoke at the Council of the Arepagus, ('Αρειος Πάγος), he observed the Altar of the Unknown God. (Acts 17:22-24). Perhaps we have made science/knowledge our new god. Even the discussion on new anticoagulants shows that there are as many knowns as unknowns. We just don't know yet. Which brings me to the term, "lacunae" use in psychiatry for a compartmentalising of a certain abnormal behaviour or thought process. We humans all have lacunae in our minds and these are not the same as lacunar infarcts which are anatomical. How many read the daily Astrology in the paper, have a superstitious talisman hanging from our rear-vision mirror, go off to do our PhD and then go off to church. synagogue or the mosque weekly. That is why our patients can happily use homeopathic remedies, go to a tea-cup reader and then have chemotherapy for their lymphoma while betting on horse number 7 in the races. The edifice of Belief is made of the bricks of Faith, cemented together by Hope, and the light that comes from it should be the light of kindness and understanding. Unless the building is established on the bedrock of humility it will become a fort of self-righteous (sic) canons. I think this also applies even to those with Atheistic Reason as their credo; today's facts maybe tomorrow's outmoded theories just as today's dictator is tomorrow's feather duster. Agnosis is not having no belief but having the humility to see that no one knows for sure. To some this is fence sitting and no better than atheism but I think not. I go to my bank as I think it is better than another but I am not sure. There might just be a better one. Now were is my lucky rabbit's foot? |
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 29/12/2011 10:55 PM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 6
First: 28/12/2011 Last: 30/12/2011 |
there may be no evidence to prove that there is a God as there may be no evidence for a particular therapeutic intervention- the lack of evidence does not necessarily equate to a lack of efficacy |
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 30/12/2011 1:08 AM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2
First: 30/12/2011 Last: 30/12/2011 |
I respect your believe in Evidence and what we know today. Remember we once believed the earth was the centre of the universe. That was the evidence then. Then come the telescope and we had '' all change please' moment. We come to know actually our blue dot is very insignificant in the vast universe. If we ever answer the question of the origin of the universe. Question like, where did-energy and matter come from before the big bang- i.e the singularity etc. We will finally answer the origins of the universe. But we will also need to find out where did the creater come from and who created the creater etc. '' In Arabic- they call the human being ' INSAAN' not insane (though he can be). which means the forgetfull, otherwise the one with the limited brain or capacity. Definetly we are not the creater if we are limited and we may never comprehend the creater, I am also afraid he may have driffted into other more pressing issues in his big universe. So fear not and lets enjoy and celebrate life as we know it. It's actually very very short. Before our atoms disassemble and we go back to ....(God knows what- to some God particles or the higgs) |
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 30/12/2011 4:39 AM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 63
First: 23/12/2011 Last: 20/5/2012 |
I think that a common reason why many atheists are such is that they focus to much on the explicits of a bible or religious text to seriously or extrapolate specific words to a meaning held by science. I have a deep passion for physics (amongst other things) and I would like to briefly address the age of the universe debate that many atheists hold dear to their heart. And again I wish to make this explicit that I believe it is in all our rights to hold our own beliefs so this does not seek to contradict anyone elses beliefs or mentalities. This is just my own. |
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 30/12/2011 6:24 AM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2075
First: 10/3/2009 Last: 18/5/2012 |
In Response to Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?: I respect your believe in Evidence and what we know today. Remember we once believed the earth was the centre of the universe. That was the evidence then. Then come the telescope and we had '' all change please' moment. We come to know actually our blue dot is very insignificant in the vast universe. If we ever answer the question of the origin of the universe. Question like, where did-energy and matter come from before the big bang- i.e the singularity etc. We will finally answer the origins of the universe. But we will also need to find out where did the creater come from and who created the creater etc. '' In Arabic- they call the human being ' INSAAN' not insane (though he can be). which means the forgetfull, otherwise the one with the limited brain or capacity. Definetly we are not the creater if we are limited and we may never comprehend the creater, I am also afraid he may have driffted into other more pressing issues in his big universe. So fear not and lets enjoy and celebrate life as we know it. It's actually very very short. Before our atoms disassemble and we go back to ....(God knows what- to some God particles or the higgs) Posted by Harun Well said, Harun. Perhaps man is too smart for this own good. We are the gold fish in the bowl looking out not realising we are in a bowl and having a finite mind to comprehend the infinite. We are out of our depths in matters of philosophy and that is why there have been so many philosophers (Greek for Hot Air) and so much said, but still without a final concluding paragraph summarising our final discovery of All Knowledge and All Wisdom. Let us wonder as children and behave as lovers of wisdom (philo-sophos). Odysseus.
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Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?
posted at 30/12/2011 6:41 AM GMT
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2075
First: 10/3/2009 Last: 18/5/2012 |
In Response to Re: Can evidence based Doctors believe in God?: I think that a common reason why many atheists are such is that they focus to much on the explicits of a bible or religious text to seriously or extrapolate specific words to a meaning held by science. I have a deep passion for physics (amongst other things) and I would like to briefly address the age of the universe debate that many atheists hold dear to their heart. And again I wish to make this explicit that I believe it is in all our rights to hold our own beliefs so this does not seek to contradict anyone elses beliefs or mentalities. This is just my own. As many religious people know, the bible alongside other texts puts the age of the earth at around 6000-8000 years old depending on which text you want to go by whereas science puts the age of the earth to be more in the region of 4.5billion years old with the universe standing at around 13 billion years old. Now this is the interesting bit that I have come to realise and something which I base my beliefs on. Science defines an earth year to be 365.25 days long or for one orbit or circuit of the sun. BUT what does the bible define a year to be?? To date I have not found an answer to this. There was no way when the bible was being written that they knew that a year was such a definite value of days AND even more exciting when I first realised it, where in the bible or other text does it define a day as being 24hours?? SO, in the beginning when heaven and earth was created in a 'day,' I personally take this as a day being an arbitrary unit of time and NOT the 24hour day that you and I abide to. If someone can find an example which contridicts what I haev just outlined then I welcome it BUT what I hope the above outlines is how I have taken evidence from both sides and been able to actually 'think outside the box' and come to a conclusion that I believe actually makes some sense. I have been a christian all my life and make no apologies in saying it. But I have always had a passion for the logic of science and I believe the above goes someway to allowing me to be able to come terms with ONE of the contradictions and grievences that the two seem to have with each other. So in conclusion. Can evidence based doctors believe in God? Yes I do when you look past the the debate and consider the evidence from both sides differently. Posted by Nathan Cantley Nathan, too literal interpretation of the Bible is its undoing. As for a day, scientific evidence including from Nautiloids show that the lunar month is slowing down, the tides etc are causing this. 420 million years ago a lunar month was about 21 days. The year is lengthening, the day lengthening and the Moon receding further from Earth. So to talk about days and years in the Beginning is somewhat meaningless. Indeed the biblical account of creation seems pretty logical; no elephants on the backs of tortoises but a clear sequence of events. However, I think it all started on a Thursday as Monday was a public holiday, it then took the bureaucrats in the Department of Cosmic Works til Tuesday to get the papers signed, Wednesday was pay day and Thursday was the ideal day as their was late night shopping. It all went quiet after sundown on Friday night. Yes, evidence-based medicine is about as logical as the day is long; but how long and when do you mean, what day? Today's evidence will be in tomorrow's waste paper basket.
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