Forums » Off duty » News & media » Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
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Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 6/10/2012 8:09 AM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 1348
First: 25/1/2009 Last: 20/5/2013 |
It has long been debated in the media on the ethics of if abortion should be legal, and if so, at what gestations it should be allowed to continue. |
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 6/10/2012 10:16 AM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2044
First: 12/3/2010 Last: 21/5/2013 |
On today's Today programme (6/10/12), Wendy Savage was put up against some Tory MP, Daniel Kawczynski. I regret that she did no more than to feebly retail previous steps in the struggle to liberalise abortion. In particular, she said nothing about the life sentence that is parenting a disabled child, when the diagnosis is almost always made after 12 weeks, and it was left to John Humphries to point out that the vast majority of abortions are carried out before 12 weeks. It is only these tragic and difficult cases that need the 24 week limit, and as any lawyer will tell you, difficult cases make bad law. Worse, neither Humphries nor Savage cross questioned Kawczinzky when he raised the religious view, but claimed that 12 weeks was what the clerics wanted. Maybe they thought everyone listening would see through that as just a step on the way to prohibition, when every religion against abortion wants it banned altogether. Today's Today is on iPlayer at http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01n5z2s/Today_06_10_2012/ and the interviews were at 0810, so 70 minutes into the tape. John |
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 6/10/2012 4:26 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 3045
First: 27/3/2012 Last: 20/5/2013 |
From point of view of safety the 12 weeks limit has generally been accepted in India medicolegally. More than 12 weeks gestation MTP require at least two competent gynecologists . |
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 7/10/2012 12:56 AM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 8
First: 15/10/2010 Last: 26/11/2012 |
In Response to Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?: From point of view of safety the 12 weeks limit has generally been accepted in India medicolegally. More than 12 weeks gestation MTP require at least two competent gynecologists . Posted by Dr. K. Ashutosh We must respect life Dr. Mario Bonilla ECFMG Nº 286828-9
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 7/10/2012 4:07 AM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 154
First: 29/11/2010 Last: 19/5/2013 |
In Response to Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?: In Response to Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit? : We must respect life Dr. Mario Bonilla ECFMG Nº 286828-9 Posted by Mario That's exactly they are trying to do i-e respect a life.The limit of 12 weeks is plausible. Human fetus has human rights.While saying that, they can include exceptions for extreme circumstances. |
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 7/10/2012 10:08 AM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2044
First: 12/3/2010 Last: 21/5/2013 |
Abortion, even more than religion by itself, is dynamite on a message board, so much so that it will be banned on most and the thread closed down. So let's maintain the impressive D2D record for polite debate? Not that anyone above hasn't been polite. Polite, but mistaken. Ashutosh, every abortion in the UK requires the 'approval' of two doctors. At least one must be a gynaecologist, else the procedure won't get done. Mario, "life". You need to be more precise. SURB, ditto. What's different between 12 and 24 weeks, that you will draw the line so early? We can discuss neonatal viability at 20-24 weeks, but before that, no. John |
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 7/10/2012 1:44 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 154
First: 29/11/2010 Last: 19/5/2013 |
In Response to Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?: SURB, ditto. What's different between 12 and 24 weeks, that you will draw the line so early? We can discuss neonatal viability at 20-24 weeks, but before that, no. John Posted by John D Do you think trading later abortions for early ones is ideal or of some advantage,if you have to draw a line what's the fair deal in your opinion? It's about decision and commitment. As it's there in the earlier post,i quote, "BUT due to improvements in neonatal care in the last decade it is not unusual for babies born at 24 weeks (and occasionally 23 weeks) to survive.Figures from BMJ in 1999 quote survival for 24 weeks as upto 21% and this has continued to improve since." We humans will keep on improving our skills and questioning our knowledge that we are carrying with us leaving a room for improvement. So,i'll play safe and say yes to the "earlier the better" mantra (with exceptions to be considered). |
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 7/10/2012 4:19 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 322
First: 12/11/2010 Last: 20/5/2013 |
The question should perhaps be reframed as: Should the social abortion limit be set at 12 weeks, with abortion for fetal malformation / genetic abnormaltiy limit set at something higher. Since 91% are already aborted by 12 weeks [and only a very small %age are actually aborted for malformation / genetics], the effect of any change would affect approx 7% of the 9% of abortions that occur late. Change is difficult to argue against when babies born as a result of premature labour occurring before 24 weeks can be kept alive - Perhaps a better compromise would be 16 weeks. |
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 7/10/2012 6:20 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2044
First: 12/3/2010 Last: 21/5/2013 |
SURB, Mortality was 18.6% and 10.9% of survivors had neurological damage at two years, in babies born with low gestation (<32/52) and low birth weight (<1500gms) in this Swiss study from 2003: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12644963. Saving 70% of them is good, but it's a terrible toll bill. The abstract doesn't go into detail about the distribution of gestational age. Relatively, a survival of 21% (79% mortality) from 24 weeks would carry a neurological damage rate of 42%, so all such babies would die or be damaged. I don't think that is true, but the figures must be very high indeed. What can we gain, for the children, by striving to keep 16 weekers alive? If medicine can present society with survival figures that show better, undamaged survival than the above, then clearly we should debate revising the limit downwards. I'd look forward to that debate with you. But it is the naked and obvious way that abolitionists seek to nibble away at liberal and compassionate legislation that angers me. I don't know what motivates Mr.Hunt to say that 'life', whatever that means, enters a foetus at 12 weeks, but I'd like to see his evidence, and Mr.Kawczynski is an open abolitionist. John PS Is my impression true that a majority of strident abolitionists are men? Is there an explanation, Freudian or otherwise, when childbirth or abortion are exclusively female? |
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Re: Is it time to change the UK abortion gestation limit?
posted at 8/10/2012 8:47 AM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2044
First: 12/3/2010 Last: 21/5/2013 |
It is a truth universally acknowledged that being got out of bed early in the morning to appear on Today isn't a good start to your day. Now, Wendy Savage has written in today's Guardian providing the evidence that she wasn't able to give in her interview on Today. |
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