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Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 25/10/2012 2:08 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 958
First: 15/7/2011 Last: 15/5/2013 |
With christmas not too far away and the annual emphasis on drink driving ads on TV will begin, how should the UK proceed dealing with alcohol and driving? The current drink drive limit is: 35mg/100mls breath 80mg/100ml in blood 107mg/100ml in Urine In the United Kingdom it is an offence to refuse to provide a specimen of breath, blood or urine for analysis. The penalties for refusing are equivalent to those applied where a positive specimen is given; a maximum six months' imprisonment, a fine of up to £5000 and a minimum 12 months' driving ban. Causing death by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs carries a maximum penalty of 14 years in prison, a minimum two-year driving ban and a requirement to pass an extended driving test before the offender is able to drive legally again. The offence of driving whilst under the influence of alcohol is one to which there is no defence, as such (although defences such as duress or automatism, which are not specific to the offence of driving with excess alcohol, may apply in certain rare circumstances). However, it may be possible to argue that special reasons exist which are such that you should not be disqualified from driving despite having committed the offence. The BMA have in the past sought to have the drink/drive level reduced to 50mg/100mls blood. Is it feasible to reduce the level to less than 50mg/100mls blood?. Campaign groups want a zero level? Whilst this may be desirable is it practical scientifically?.Drink drive limits in other countries (randomly selected examples) Indonesia No limit United Arab Emirates Zero Czech Republic Zero Denmark 0.5% Denmark 0.02% Hungary Zero Austria 0.05% and 0.01% for drivers who held a licence for less than 2 years Paraguay Zero Ireland 0.05% generally or 0.02% for learner drivers Spain 0.05% and 0.03% for drivers with less than 2 years experience Scotland currently consulting on reducing the alcohol limit to 50mg/100mls breath Albania 0.01% Norway 0.02% Tasmania Zero limit for learner, truck, bus and Taxi drivers New Zealand operates a program called Compulsory Breath Testing. This allows police to stop motorists at anytime and anywhere without first having reasonable cause to suspect a driver has been drinking. CBT is usually carried out at roadside Checkpoints but mobile patrol cars can also stop random motorists for a test. The police also carry out roadside drug tests upon motorists they suspect have used drugs. The principle questions are thus: |
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Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 25/10/2012 2:10 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 1259
First: 13/4/2010 Last: 19/5/2013 |
I don't think an absolute zero limit is possible due to small amounts of hidden alcohol in things like mouthwash and cough mixture. So I would tend to favour a limits of 20 or 30 which seems to me reasonable. Evidence suggests that even at these levels judegment is impaired so no need for the limit to be any higher. I think the other way to tackle it is in sentencing. So, in my view, first offense - 6 months in gaol and 5 year driving ban; second offense several years in gaol and permanent driving ban. That might help to focus minds a little |
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Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 25/10/2012 9:51 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 321
First: 12/11/2010 Last: 8/5/2013 |
It is interesting that all of the deaths related to drink driving that have passed through our mortuary [and that we have analysed blood alcohol on], have involved people who have been at least 3x the current drink-drive limit. Those people were clearly so far above any reasonable intake level that they would take no notice of any law, no matter what it is, Lowering the limit would therefore penalise the large majority of people who do not pose a danger whilst leaving the nutters unaffected [because they would still drink even if the limit were to be lowered]. |
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Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 26/10/2012 6:29 AM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 958
First: 15/7/2011 Last: 15/5/2013 |
In Response to Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...: It is interesting that all of the deaths related to drink driving that have passed through our mortuary [and that we have analysed blood alcohol on], have involved people who have been at least 3x the current drink-drive limit. Those people were clearly so far above any reasonable intake level that they would take no notice of any law, no matter what it is, Lowering the limit would therefore penalise the large majority of people who do not pose a danger whilst leaving the nutters unaffected [because they would still drink even if the limit were to be lowered]. Posted by TimReynolds Tim I had meant to put into my post that most drink drivers caught with excess alcohol are at least twice over the legal limit. I agree with your comments. |
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Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 26/10/2012 1:21 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2035
First: 12/3/2010 Last: 19/5/2013 |
I know that there isn't a technical fix for every problem, but seat belts abolished ejection through the windscreen as a source of injury in RTAs. If you can't drive your car, you can't kill anyone with it. It is possible to fit alcometer interlocks to your car, and I think this is done to offenders in the US: http://www.breathalyzeralcoholtester.com/car-breathalyzer-ignition-interlock The Personal Liberty lobby would scream very loudly, but if we are serious about stopping drink driving, should these be fitted to all cars? And trains, planes, ships and donkeys. The cost would be minimal if universal. John |
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Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 26/10/2012 4:39 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 1280
First: 9/12/2011 Last: 14/5/2013 |
Hey Kirked, Greetings and salutations, I guess I could summarize the USA as being simliiar to the UK laws, but different also. here is an extract from an attorney web page: - Drunk Driving Laws in New YorkNew York Drunk Driving and Wet Reckless Laws - Nolo.com State of New York BAC Laws:
Your first conviction for driving while intoxicated (DWI) in the State of New York with a BAC of .08 percent or higher is a misdemeanor. You will be fined from $500 to $1,000 and you could spend up to 1 year in jail. Your drivers license will be suspended for a minimum of 6 months and you will be ordered to pay a mandatory conviction surcharge. You will also be ordered alcohol screening and evaluation prior to sentencing. Your second conviction for a DWI in New York State within 10 years of the first DWI will be a Class E Felony. This felony will cost you a minimum fine of $1,000 or up to $5,000. You will also receive a minimum jail sentence of 10 days in jail or be ordered to perform 60 days of community service. The minimum 10 day jail sentence can be increased by the court up to 7 years in jail. Your driver license will be revoked for a minimum of 1 year plus you will have to pay for an ignition interlock device that will be placed on your vehicle once your suspension is over. The court will also have you pay for your alcohol assessment. A 3rd drunk driving conviction in New York is a class D felony. You will be fined a minimum of $2,000 up to $10,000. You could be sentenced up to 7 years in jail, 10 days of which is mandatory. The court may also order you to serve 60 days of community service. Your driver license will be revoked for a minimum of 1 year plus you will have to pay for an ignition interlock device that will be placed on your vehicle once your suspension is over. The State of New York prohibits driving with a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of .08 percent or above. The .08 limit is used throughout the United States as the benchmark for the "impaired" driver. New York State has lower limits for Commercial drivers (.04) and drivers under the age of 21 (.02). The laws for drivers under 21 are effectively a zero tolerance law and a minor could lose the privilege to drive until they become an adult. The New York law also addresses driving under the influence of drugs, alcohol or both. The Implied Consent Law in New YorkLike other states across the country, New York State has an implied consent law. This law means that all drivers on the roadways of New York agree to submit to a chemical test of their blood, breath or urine of an officer of the law suspects the driver is under the influence of alcohol or drugs. If you refuse such a test you drivers license will be suspended in court and revoked for a minimum of 1 year. You will also be fined $500 on your first refusal and $750 for your second. Additional Information on Drunk Driving Laws, Penalties and Fines in New York Other State of New York InformationNew York Lemon Law Teen Driving Laws and Insurance Requirements in New York The State of New York Cell-Phone Law |
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Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 26/10/2012 5:42 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 2035
First: 12/3/2010 Last: 19/5/2013 |
Not just drunk driving; the offence of drunk in charge of a human body would seem to be needed, with a life sentence, 'coz the offenders ain't getting much more life otherwise. My BMJ arrived today, with BMA News and the regular column "Frontline Medicine" by Charles Lamb, "a consultant in emergency medicine". Don't know if that's your real name, Charles but I like your writing. Today, Dr.Lamb describes just six people that his department has gathered overnight, from a much larger number. They are all injured becuase they were drunk or injured because of their persistent drinking, and all are 'frequent flyers'. He happened to vist the acute medical unit to find another eleven such patients and one in ICU with alcohol related hepatorenal failure, who was unlikely to trouble anyone anymore, after today. I won't even try to emulate Dr.Lamb's eloquent plea for some sensible policies to curb the excessive drinking we see all around us. It seems that drunk driving is just a small part of the damage that alcohol is doing to our people. John |
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Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 26/10/2012 8:08 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 958
First: 15/7/2011 Last: 15/5/2013 |
In Response to Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...: Hey Kirked, Greetings and salutations, I guess I could summarize the USA as being simliiar to the UK laws, but different also. here is an extract from an attorney web page: - Drunk Driving Laws in New York New York Drunk Driving and Wet Reckless Laws - Nolo.com State of New York BAC Laws: All drivers with a BAC of .08 or higher. Under 21 with a BAC of .02 or higher. Commercial Vehicle Driver with a BAC of .04 or higher. Your first conviction for driving while intoxicated (DWI) in the State of New York with a BAC of .08 percent or higher is a misdemeanor. You will be fined from $500 to $1,000 and you could spend up to 1 year in jail. Your drivers license will be suspended for a minimum of 6 months and you will be ordered to pay a mandatory conviction surcharge. You will also be ordered alcohol screening and evaluation prior to sentencing. Your second conviction for a DWI in New York State within 10 years of the first DWI will be a Class E Felony. This felony will cost you a minimum fine of $1,000 or up to $5,000. You will also receive a minimum jail sentence of 10 days in jail or be ordered to perform 60 days of community service. The minimum 10 day jail sentence can be increased by the court up to 7 years in jail. Your driver license will be revoked for a minimum of 1 year plus you will have to pay for an ignition interlock device that will be placed on your vehicle once your suspension is over. The court will also have you pay for your alcohol assessment. A 3rd drunk driving conviction in New York is a class D felony. You will be fined a minimum of $2,000 up to $10,000. You could be sentenced up to 7 years in jail, 10 days of which is mandatory. The court may also order you to serve 60 days of community service. Your driver license will be revoked for a minimum of 1 year plus you will have to pay for an ignition interlock device that will be placed on your vehicle once your suspension is over. The State of New York prohibits driving with a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of .08 percent or above. The .08 limit is used throughout the United States as the benchmark for the "impaired" driver. New York State has lower limits for Commercial drivers (.04) and drivers under the age of 21 (.02). The laws for drivers under 21 are effectively a zero tolerance law and a minor could lose the privilege to drive until they become an adult. The New York law also addresses driving under the influence of drugs, alcohol or both. The Implied Consent Law in New York Like other states across the country, New York State has an implied consent law. This law means that all drivers on the roadways of New York agree to submit to a chemical test of their blood, breath or urine of an officer of the law suspects the driver is under the influence of alcohol or drugs. If you refuse such a test you drivers license will be suspended in court and revoked for a minimum of 1 year. You will also be fined $500 on your first refusal and $750 for your second. Additional Information on Drunk Driving Laws, Penalties and Fines in New York Other State of New York Information New York Lemon Law Teen Driving Laws and Insurance Requirements in New York The State of New York Cell-Phone Law by: Rich Stim , Attorney As a side note NY law, my State, also stipulates fines and criminal penalities for driving while impaired, under the influence of prescription drugs, IE- Vicodin, Muscle relaxants, etc. I recently hurt some lower back muscles, Lumbar strain, and I was on Baclofen, a muscle relaxant, so I was forced to not take the drug while driving, Forced by my conscious, and I try to remain legal, in order to preserve publiuc safety, I do not do well with Drugs anyway, I relay on plain old Motrin to cover most injuries. Hope this helps, Feel free to ask more questions, Most US states mirror NY laws somewhat. DuaneF Posted by DuaneF Thanks Duane, its helpful. Is it possible for someone with no alcohol in their system to blow into the interlock device so that a drunk can subsequently drive the car?. I have a feeling I have heard it mentioned on COPS - but I may have got the wrong end of the stick. Drink driving here (like most other countries) is a terrible scourge on societies safety. Personally I don't touch a drop of alcohol if I will be driving - I would rather know that alcohol is not in my system at all when driving. It is interesting about medication (properly prescribed) is also becoming recognised as having potentialy negative effects. Police officers are now doing these sobriety/field drug tests to assess for impairment due to drugs. I had a case not so long ago where a Type One Diabetic accidently injected himself with an rapid acting Insulin in a high dose instead of a long acting Insulin. He ate lots of sandwiches and said he felt fine. I (being no medical expert) advised him to seek medical advice immediately (he was my neighbour). He ignored my advice, drove of to work and subsequently crashed and wrote of his car but thankfully hurt noone else. In my view he behaved like a moron - be safe first to yourself and others. I was more than happy to describe the circumstances to the Police.. |
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Re: Drink driving in the UK should be...
posted at 27/10/2012 5:00 PM BST
on bmj.com
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Posts: 1280
First: 9/12/2011 Last: 14/5/2013 |
Hi Kirked, Yes it is possible, for someone not drunk to blow into interlock system, and render the car drivable for the Drunk! Also possible is it for the drunk to drive another car, and to short out the system, Someone with basic mechanical knowledge can rewire the car. I too, like you my friend, think there are no short answers or solutions to this quagmire, I wonder if people will ever grow up? DuaneF |
