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Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.
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Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.
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There are so many advances in last twenty to thirty years in investigations. But still I keep on getting patiets with atypical Rheumatoid Artheritis and SLE like symptoms, where I can not put a label
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Forums  »  BMJ  »  BMJ  »  Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 23/6/2011 4:39 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 220
First: 10/12/2010
Last: 1/6/2012
There are so many advances in last twenty to thirty years in investigations. But still I keep on getting patiets with atypical Rheumatoid Artheritis and SLE like symptoms, where I can not put a label on this patient.

Recently I had a patient, 60 yrs old; having severe pain in small and large joints, particularly in MCP and shoulder joints on both sides. He became almost crippled as he could not grip and thing and he could not pick up any thing.

All investigations were negative except ESR being 45 mm, and positive for CRP. He was referred to rheumatologist. He opined that in his opinion he is suffering from Psoriasis but could not be definite. Ultimately he is taking methotrexate along with steroids and NSAIDs.

What percentage of this kind of patients remains unlabelled?

Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 23/6/2011 11:16 PM BST on bmj.com
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First: 7/3/2009
Last: 24/5/2013
There are still patients that are not labelled, despite all the different markers and HLA typing.
Clinical picture as we all were taught makes the diagnosis. The patient no doubt has a connective tissue disorder. I understand it does respond to treatment? The disorder may remain unlabelled, or eventually it will ripen to fit a certain "label".

Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 24/6/2011 4:24 PM BST on bmj.com
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First: 10/12/2010
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Hi Yoram

You are right; I find the clinical criteria for RA , OA and SLE more useful than these markers.
This patient had obviously inflammed serous membranes of these joints. He is responding well.

Do you find such patietns with normal ESR and normal CRP? I am greatly curious. Many a times I am certain that I will get these abnormal based upon history but these turn out to be normal; leaving at the end of my wits!

Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 26/6/2011 5:39 PM BST on bmj.com
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First: 26/6/2011
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In Response to Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.:
Hi Yoram You are right; I find the clinical criteria for RA , OA and SLE more useful than these markers. This patient had obviously inflammed serous membranes of these joints. He is responding well. Do you find such patietns with normal ESR and normal CRP? I am greatly curious. Many a times I am certain that I will get these abnormal based upon history but these turn out to be normal; leaving at the end of my wits!
Posted by ranasaleem52


Patients with spondyloarthropathies, such as PsA, can have normal inflammatory markers even with florid clinical inflammation present.  Examination and experience should alert you to the possibility of PsA or other spondyloarthropathy.

Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 26/6/2011 9:56 PM BST on bmj.com
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First: 7/3/2009
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Hi, I have seen several cases that came out negative serologically, but later "cooked up" to become a full blown connective tissue disorder, by then showing all the serological charateristics of connective tissue disease.
Then you have the seronegative connective tissue disorders, that might present with many clinical features without laboratory markers.

Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 27/6/2011 5:51 AM BST on bmj.com
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First: 9/10/2009
Last: 13/3/2013

Joint pain can be a manifestation of disorders confined to the joint and also of a number of systemic disorders. Identifying the cause of joint pain, therefore, can be difficult because of extensive differential diagnosis. In some cases the diagnosis may be hindered by atypical presentation (as in the elderly or immunocompromised), or masked in those with multiple comorbidities and / or symptoms. Consequently it’s prudent to keep the diagnosis open in patients who present with pain in multiple joints. For instance, what may begin as a monoarthritis may in course of time become polyarthritis, thereby necessitating a review of alternative diagnostic possibilities. Similarly, an elderly woman, diagnosed initially as RA, might later develop a molar rash and oral ulcer which would change the diagnosis to SLE.

A careful history and physical examination are essential which will help guide appropriate investigations and management. The most relevant aspects to decide are threefold:

1.       1 - Whether the underlying disorder is inflammatory or not.

2.     2 -Establish the type of onset (acute or otherwise), and its subsequent evolution (i.e. self-limiting, monoarticular, polyarticular symmetrical, polyarticular non-symmetrica. and

3.     3 - The presence of associated extra-articular and systemic manifestations (e.g. fever, rash, eye involvement, bowel symptoms, Raynaud’s, etc.)

The majority of conditions are benign and self-limiting, but a minority (trauma, sepsis, gout) may require an urgent assessment and treatment. 

Presently, in many rheumatologic disorders, applying information from various imaging modalities, such as conventional radiography, CT, MRI, arthrography, bone scintigraphy, and ultrasound within the context of the patient’s history and clinical presentation can help select the best test and lead to a reliable diagnosis, appropriate therapy, and overall better patient care with lower costs and risks.


Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 27/6/2011 7:54 AM BST on bmj.com
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First: 10/12/2010
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Hi SKerigam

welcome to this discussion. You have made a statement wich has directly gone to my heart. Everyday I am faced with these cases. I do not know how to add steroids or methotrexate in addtion to NSAIDs. Is there any accepted clinical opinion? How to be sure that this inflammatory other then signs?

Welcome back CSM to my horizen!

You are so right about these patietns. I have countless number of patietns who were labelled initially as Reactive Arthritis, but later on moved to other Diagnosis.

Pus cells in urine (obviously /> 10) and a foul smelling, thick infective vag discharge complicates the diagnosis in many lady patietns.

Most perplexing for me is one question? How can you have inflammatory arthritis with normal ESR and normal CRP? Can you? SKerigam has got to the soul of my problem. He seems to suggest that we can? Do you think we can?

Yorum !     Do you also think we can have inflammatory arthritis with normal ESR and normal CRP? This is the point I am trying to clarify for my practice.

Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 27/6/2011 12:40 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 566
First: 9/10/2009
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It’s a common knowledge that ESR,CRP are nonspecific indicators of inflammation, not useful as screening tests for rheumatic diseases, and cannot differentiate one disease from another. Repeated studies of workup for polyarticular complaints and rheumatoid disease demonstrate many variable factors (e.g. age, gender, pregnancy, comorbid diseases, etc.) associated with CRP/ESR discordance. In many studies ESR and CRP values were modestly correlated with each other and they were weakly correlated with disease activity measures. These data suggest that another look at the role of ESR and CRP as markers of inflammation in RA patients seen in routine care may be in order.

Some studies state that it is not necessary to obtain both ESR and CRP measures for clinical disease activity assessment in clinical trials of RA. Neither test adds significantly to clinical measures of disease activity including joint counts and global assessments. Where available, the CRP alone may be preferred for disease activity assessment as a simple, validated, reproducible, non age-dependent test.

In office practice, test selection is generally guided by whether the clinical assessment suggests inflammatory or noninflammatory disease. One inquires into the characteristic hallmarks of inflammation: redness, warmth, soft-tissue swelling, and tenderness. If such symptoms are localized to and encompass an entire joint, one has excellent presumptive evidence for synovitis and an inflammatory process. A good history and clues on physical examination increase the “pretest probability” by asking questions that support the diagnosis of inflammatory arthropathy or systemic rheumatic disease.

In general, although ESR / CRP can be helpful to monitor certain patients, laboratory measures cannot serve as a gold standard for diagnosis and management in all individual patients with RA or any rheumatic disease. I suppose, we (and our patients’ as well) would benefit from an improved understanding of the limitations of laboratory tests in diagnosis and management of patients with rheumatologic disorders.

Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 27/6/2011 1:12 PM BST on bmj.com
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I believe we encounter cases that will have normal ESR.CRP and still fit the criteria of connective tissue disease.In near future, more tests based of genomics and proteomics will enable us to find abnormalities that characterise such disorders.

Re: Investigations for rheumatoligical disorders, especially connective tissue disorders.

posted at 27/6/2011 3:30 PM BST on bmj.com
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First: 10/12/2010
Last: 1/6/2012
Thank you Yorum

In developing counteries where resources with the patients are very very limited and expertise to perform tests in the laboratories is very rudimentary, this news that you can have auto-immune disease even with normal ESR and normal CRP carrys lot of practical importance.

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