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Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?
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Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?
Discuss what's in the BMJ and on bmj.com
This is the question asked in the BMJ's Head to Head this week. Yes: http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e3242 No: http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e3175 Changes are afoot for doctors pensions in Eng
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Forums  »  BMJ  »  BMJ  »  Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 5:21 AM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 2947
First: 10/3/2009
Last: 29/4/2013
With regards discussing things we are not involved in  may I suggest as the NHS is about as relevant to most of the 55,000 on this international site as the constituents of Marmite, that doc2doc NHS workers start a special "doc2doc NHS Only" site where you can all have a good winge and we outsiders (étrangers) can go on discussing the constituents of Vegemite or for North Americans, Jello.

However, you would have to show your Painters and Doctors NHS Union Card to enter.

I'll go back to my gunya and finish off my medium-rare kangaroo. 

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 2:12 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 1266
First: 13/4/2010
Last: 21/5/2013
sad you think us NHS workers are just a bunch of whingers Odysseus. So here's a statement released today from Brian Keighley, Chair of the BMA in Scotland - or should that be "The High Heid Yin of Whingers"?

This week, the British Medical Association launches a ballot of doctors on industrial action in protest against planned changes to the NHS pension scheme, which it considers to be unnecessary and unfair.

inShare0

The chances are that readers won't remember doctors taking industrial action – the last time this happened was in 1975 when the junior doctors who will be hit hardest by the Government's changes to the NHS pension scheme, hadn't been born. That doctors have not taken action for more than 35 years gives some indication of how reluctantly we have taken the step to ballot doctors but also of how angry they are at these planned changes.

There is a mistaken belief that all public sector pensions are now unaffordable and in need of significant reform. But not all public sector pensions are the same and these arguments cannot be levelled at the NHS pension scheme. It therefore falls to me, as chairman of BMA Scotland, to explain why my members are contemplating industrial action.

First the facts: The NHS pension scheme was extensively reformed in 2008, and far from being in deficit provides a positive cashflow of around £2 billion a year to the Treasury. In 2008, the BMA agreed to a tiered contribution scheme where those who earned more, paid more in contributions. We also agreed to an increase in the normal retirement age to 65 and, perhaps most importantly, we agreed a cost sharing arrangement where any future cost increases in the scheme would be met by pension scheme members, not the NHS or the taxpayer.

Those changes have proven to be affordable and sustainable for the future.

On any reasonable test, the current Coalition Government proposals are blatantly unfair.Its direction that public sector employee contributions should rise by 6% over the next three years is entirely independent of where each employee group started. So, some groups paying as little as 1.5% will see contributions rise to about 7.5 % of salary, whilst senior NHS workers on the same income will have to pay up to 14.5%. It would surely be more reasonable to level the playing field and bring other public sector schemes into line. Doctors recognise that they, like every other member of society, must share the pain of austerity, but insist that it is a fair share.

Whilst doctors are clearly angry at these reforms, we want to be clear that our argument is with the Government, not our patients. To that end the form of industrial action we are proposing is based on an overriding commitment to patient safety. All emergency care, or other care urgently needed would be provided, with doctors attending their place of work as usual where scheduled to do so. If someone urgently needed care, it would be provided. The difference would be that some services that could safely be postponed would not be undertaken on the day. In hospitals, this would mean that some non-urgent procedures and outpatient appointments are postponed. GP surgeries would not offer advance booked appointments, but would be open and fully staffed so that they could see patients in need of urgent attention.

It is our intention to co-operate with NHS managers to plan for industrial action to ensure that patients are aware of the reduced services that will be available on the day.

There is, of course a Scottish dimension. The Scottish Government runs the NHS pension scheme north of the Border and has told its NHS staff that whilst accepting the need for public sector pension reform, it will follow Treasury direction to increase employee contributions under the cosh of a pound-for-pound deduction from the Scottish block grant if it deviates, and there are now more recent indications of direct Treasury interference over how the Scottish Government is expected to follow its unreasonable policy.

The ballot opens today, and I hope this exposition of the facts behind the dispute helps to bring balance to the public debate.

Dr Brian Keighley is chairman of the BMA in Scotland and a practising GP in Balfron.

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 2:51 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 3045
First: 27/3/2012
Last: 20/5/2013
In Response to Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?:
I understand the wanting to retire at 60 on a good pension to see you through potentially the next thirty years of life in a style which you would hope and dream would be comfortable in your old age.  I am sure there are many up and coming retirees approaching 65 who are actually wishing they could work for another few years to try to get back the losses incurred in the global turndown that has ravaged what looked like decent retirement funds.   Younger workers in any career have the time to recover their funds as the world finances go up and down and down and down and down.   Those on the cusp of retirement are truly worried.  There is no time for their finances and their investments to "come good" before they die and they can see a very different future for themselves than was envisaged just eight or ten years ago.   Retiring at 65 is a rapidly disappearing concept as the world changes and demands increase.  In Australia, increasing the retirement age to 68 has been on the table for years, so those in UK are not being discriminated against though they may feel that they are.  Wise Aussies are already planning to work to 68 or 70 or longer if that is possible because they can see their investments, no matter how wisely crafted now, are no longer guaranteed of increasing, but more likely to be lost on the stroke of a pen by a government that may not even be in their own country.  The manner of the work in the later years needs to be accommodated so that experience and wisdom is not lost to retirement and stagnation.   And as other writers have already said, doctor's pensions are still much higher than most, many of whom struggle simply to  live, not struggle to live in style to which they think they are entitled.
Posted by Dr Linda

Thanks for an excellent post with  good perception Dr. Linda!
I much appreciate it.

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 2:53 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 3045
First: 27/3/2012
Last: 20/5/2013
In Response to Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?:
With regards discussing things we are not involved in  may I suggest as the NHS is about as relevant to most of the 55,000 on this international site as the constituents of Marmite, that doc2doc NHS workers start a special "doc2doc NHS Only" site where you can all have a good winge and we outsiders ( étrangers ) can go on discussing the constituents of Vegemite or for North Americans, Jello. However, you would have to show your Painters and Doctors NHS Union Card to enter. I'll go back to my gunya and finish off my medium-rare kangaroo. 
Posted by Odysseus

A nice discussion Dr. Odysseus! I liked it.

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 2:55 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 3045
First: 27/3/2012
Last: 20/5/2013
In Response to Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?:
sad you think us NHS workers are just a bunch of whingers Odysseus. So here's a statement released today from Brian Keighley, Chair of the BMA in Scotland - or should that be "The High Heid Yin of Whingers"? This week, the British Medical Association launches a ballot of doctors on industrial action in protest against planned changes to the NHS pension scheme, which it considers to be unnecessary and unfair. in Share 0 The chances are that readers won't remember doctors taking industrial action – the last time this happened was in 1975 when the junior doctors who will be hit hardest by the Government's changes to the NHS pension scheme, hadn't been born. That doctors have not taken action for more than 35 years gives some indication of how reluctantly we have taken the step to ballot doctors but also of how angry they are at these planned changes. There is a mistaken belief that all public sector pensions are now unaffordable and in need of significant reform. But not all public sector pensions are the same and these arguments cannot be levelled at the NHS pension scheme. It therefore falls to me, as chairman of BMA Scotland, to explain why my members are contemplating industrial action. First the facts: The NHS pension scheme was extensively reformed in 2008, and far from being in deficit provides a positive cashflow of around £2 billion a year to the Treasury. In 2008, the BMA agreed to a tiered contribution scheme where those who earned more, paid more in contributions. We also agreed to an increase in the normal retirement age to 65 and, perhaps most importantly, we agreed a cost sharing arrangement where any future cost increases in the scheme would be met by pension scheme members, not the NHS or the taxpayer. Those changes have proven to be affordable and sustainable for the future. On any reasonable test, the current Coalition Government proposals are blatantly unfair.Its direction that public sector employee contributions should rise by 6% over the next three years is entirely independent of where each employee group started. So, some groups paying as little as 1.5% will see contributions rise to about 7.5 % of salary, whilst senior NHS workers on the same income will have to pay up to 14.5%. It would surely be more reasonable to level the playing field and bring other public sector schemes into line. Doctors recognise that they, like every other member of society, must share the pain of austerity, but insist that it is a fair share. Whilst doctors are clearly angry at these reforms, we want to be clear that our argument is with the Government, not our patients. To that end the form of industrial action we are proposing is based on an overriding commitment to patient safety. All emergency care, or other care urgently needed would be provided, with doctors attending their place of work as usual where scheduled to do so. If someone urgently needed care, it would be provided. The difference would be that some services that could safely be postponed would not be undertaken on the day. In hospitals, this would mean that some non-urgent procedures and outpatient appointments are postponed. GP surgeries would not offer advance booked appointments, but would be open and fully staffed so that they could see patients in need of urgent attention. It is our intention to co-operate with NHS managers to plan for industrial action to ensure that patients are aware of the reduced services that will be available on the day. There is, of course a Scottish dimension. The Scottish Government runs the NHS pension scheme north of the Border and has told its NHS staff that whilst accepting the need for public sector pension reform, it will follow Treasury direction to increase employee contributions under the cosh of a pound-for-pound deduction from the Scottish block grant if it deviates, and there are now more recent indications of direct Treasury interference over how the Scottish Government is expected to follow its unreasonable policy. The ballot opens today, and I hope this exposition of the facts behind the dispute helps to bring balance to the public debate. Dr Brian Keighley is chairman of the BMA in Scotland and a practising GP in Balfron.
Posted by skyesteve

Many thanks for an elaborate & comprehensive discussion Dr. Skyesteve!

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 4:37 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 1178
First: 19/4/2010
Last: 21/5/2013
In Response to Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?:
With regards discussing things we are not involved in  may I suggest as the NHS is about as relevant to most of the 55,000 on this international site as the constituents of Marmite, that doc2doc NHS workers start a special "doc2doc NHS Only" site where you can all have a good winge and we outsiders ( étrangers ) can go on discussing the constituents of Vegemite or for North Americans, Jello. However, you would have to show your Painters and Doctors NHS Union Card to enter. I'll go back to my gunya and finish off my medium-rare kangaroo. 
Posted by Odysseus

Come now - this discussion was started in the BMJ sub-forum of the BMJ forum.  It was hidden away, in the appropriate place for the British doctors to talk about what is happening in the British system right now.  At point of posting, there have been 925 readings of the thread, and 25 posts, so it's interesting to s few people.

It's also the biggest thing happening in British medical politics at the moment.  But we'd all love to hear what's happening in Australian, American, European and elsewhere medical politics too.  Start a thread - see how many people are interested?

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 4:47 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 324
First: 23/12/2011
Last: 3/5/2013

I have to chickle at everyone who vainly tries to defend the Pensions action. I went online to the 'Pension Tension' site that the BMA so aptly decided to put together with its scary graphics and people looking scared in the style of a 60s horror movie

(wow way to not put ideas in peoples heads before they have all the facts)

and filled out their form so that their fancy LOOKING software could predict how awful this was going to be for me.
It said that firstly I would be contributing 200,000 more into my pension OVER MY WORKING LIFE if I went into a Consultant job under the 2008 pension scheme. Now it is the letter in capitals that I want to bring to everyone attention. If you do the math then over a working life of 43 years (enter F1 at aged 25 and retire at 68) then that means I would be contributing an additional 4,500quid each year. Now I do not know about everyone else but 4,500 in the context of a consultants salary which according to the NHS careers website is typically between 74,000 and 100,000quid a year does not seem that much. You are definitely in the realms of disposable income there.

Then to add insult to injuru it says two pages on that when I retire my pension would be PER YEAR  around 70,000quid. Now does anyone else not think that that again is a ludicrous sum of money to get EACH YEAR of your retirement when compared to that of so many others.

THEN, it said that OVER 20 years of retirement!!! I would be 137,000quid worse off under RPI. But again for EACH INDEPENDENT year the figure is 6,875quid. In the context of a 70,000quid pension still a ludicrously small amount.
Am I the only thinking that the BMAs figures only seem scary because people are looking at the figure instead of looking at what it MEANS!!!!

If you look at 137,000quid and put 'worse off' beside it of course it is going to look scary but if you break it into what it means for each year of your career it does not seem that much in the context of your overall pay.

LOOK BEHIND THE FIGURES BEFORE YOU MAKE A DECISION ON THIS EDUCATED PEERS!!!

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 4:53 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 1178
First: 19/4/2010
Last: 21/5/2013
In Response to Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?:
I have to chickle at everyone who vainly tries to defend the Pensions action. I went online to the 'Pension Tension' ....  LOOK BEHIND THE FIGURES BEFORE YOU MAKE A DECISION ON THIS EDUCATED PEERS!!!
Posted by NCantley

I have to agree with youNCantley.  

If I offered 70K per year of pension to anyone in the Dundee high street, I doubt many of them would turn me down.

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 5:19 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 1266
First: 13/4/2010
Last: 21/5/2013
But why should a civil servant on the same salary as me get the same pension for half the contribution? We both work hard for the Government afterall (although most civil servants have never saved a life). So how can that be fair?
And why, when we accepted pension reform in 2008 which left a scheme giving the treasury a £2 billion windfall every year for the foreseeable future and which put the onus on the profession not the tax-payer to meet future costs, should we now sit back and let the Government unilaterally tear up that agreement which they signed up to without any attempt to negotiate?

Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?

posted at 14/5/2012 5:44 PM BST on bmj.com
Posts: 324
First: 23/12/2011
Last: 3/5/2013
In Response to Re: Are doctors justified in striking in defence of their pensions?:
1) But why should a civil servant on the same salary as me get the same pension for half the contribution? We both work hard for the Government afterall (although most civil servants have never saved a life). 2) So how can that be fair? And why, when we accepted pension reform in 2008 which left a scheme giving the treasury a £2 billion windfall every year for the foreseeable future and which put the onus on the profession not the tax-payer to meet future costs, 3) should we now sit back and let the Government unilaterally tear up that agreement which they signed up to without any attempt to negotiate?
Posted by skyesteve


1) Ha. Has anyone seen this mentioned in any document the BMA has drawn up so far?.. I havent
2) Really? We are going to base going to to industrial action for the first time in 35or whatever years on the fact it isn't fair??? Dont know if anyone has noticed but not many things in today's society are
3) Should we let them walk over us. As I have said on multiple occasions- no. Yet we need to PICK which battles we fight and unfortunately I find this to be the wrong battle to fight.
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